S1.Ep2. Supporting Women’s Health at Work: A Review of Evidence.
With guests Dr Ruth Abrams and Dr Lilith Whiley.
In this episode, we explore the latest research on how workplaces can better support women's reproductive health during pregnancy, postnatal return, and menopause. This discussion highlights evidence-based interventions, organisational signals, and the importance of inclusive policies that genuinely support diverse needs.
We discuss:
The motivation behind research on women's health in the workplace and its systemic implications
Key findings from the realist review of support interventions
Four pillars of successful workplace health strategies: design, readiness, manager and coworker roles, and consistent signals
The significance of signals sent by policies, leadership, and everyday practices
The critical role of line managers and the support they need to effectively support women
Gaps in evidence, particularly around nuanced issues like IVF support and miscarriage at work
Practical tools, guides, and checklists for organisations to audit and improve their practices
The importance of lived experience in designing sustainable interventions
How leadership signals support for maternity, menopause, and overall women's health
Future research directions and ongoing projects in this vital area
How organisations across sectors, including healthcare like the NHS, are approaching these issues with humility and commitment
Links.
Episode Transcript.
Rachael Jordan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Parent Experience podcast. Today we are joined by Dr Ruth Abrams and Dr Lilith Wiley, and we have myself, Rachael Jordan, am your host alongside Dr Krystal Wilkinson. In today's episode, we'll be talking about supporting women's health at work, a review of evidence. And before we jump into listening all about that, I'm going to do a couple of introductions. So first is Dr. Lilith Wiley.
Lilith is a chartered psychologist and an interdisciplinary researcher across psychology, sociology, human resource management and management and organisation studies. Lilith's core research area is gender and health at work across menstruation, pregnancy, postnatal return to work, menopause, as well as LGBTQ plus identities. She's particularly interested in reducing violence against women and girls including tackling stigma, discrimination, harassment and sexist attitudes, as well as promoting allyship. This also includes new forms of mentorship and coaching that redress inequalities and enhance inclusion. Lilith's work deepens our understanding of the lived experiences of stigmatized identities, identifies good practices and proposes evidence-based interventions and recommendations. Thank you for joining us, Lilith.
And alongside Lilith, we have Dr. Ruth Abrams, who's an associate professor in the School of Health Sciences at the University of Surrey. Ruth is also an organisational psychologist with an internationally recognized research program focused on creating healthy, sustainable, and equitable health care workplaces. Ruth's research examines how workforce, organisational, and system factors shape staff well-being, retention and service delivery across a range of workplace settings. She has a particular expertise in primary care workforce development, women in healthcare and workplace interventions that support women's reproductive health across pregnancy, postnatal return to work and menopause. Ruth is also recognised for her expertise in realist review and realist evaluation, which she applies to understanding what works, for whom, in what circumstances and why.
Lilith and Ruth, thank you so much for joining us today. So today we are going to talk to Lilith and Ruth about their comprehensive research program to understand what successful workplace support for women's health looks like across those areas that I mentioned before, pregnancy, postnatal return and menopause. This was done because women's health remains insufficiently supported in many workplaces and failing to address it can lead to avoidable challenges for employees and organisations alike. Women report that their most significant challenges related to pregnancy and fertility, returning to work after parental leave and menopause. So today, we'll be discussing the study's findings, the specific challenges women face, the conditions that enable effective support in the workplace, and the interventions most likely to make a meaningful difference. So without further ado,
Lilith and Ruth, let's jump into it. So we'd love first of all to hear about this particular piece of research and what was the background in the context that led up to that.
Ruth (03:07)
Thank you so much for having us here today. So it's such a brilliant opportunity to be able to talk about this study, which Lilith and I co-led. So one of the kind of key motivations for this study, and as you've just rightly pointed out, is we know that across the UK, millions of women navigate pregnancy, postnatal return to work and menopause while working.
And we also know that the research shows that women experiencing reproductive health related systems often will also report fatigue, pain, mental health strain and or stigma at work. And all of these then have a knock on impact for a women's sense of job satisfaction, career progression and wellbeing, as well as an organisation's ability to retain high performing talent and also just sustain their workforce. There's also cost implications to this as well.
And particularly, I guess, for your listeners, what we also know is that for postnatal women, the return to work experience starts when they are pregnant at work. So how they are treated in the workplace, you know, really begins from the outset. So for Lilith and I, it was just really crucial to start to address this so that we can normalise women's reproductive health experiences at work and really explore that kind of significant loss of talent and systemic failure, particularly when we know that women make up half the workforce. The extra layer to this, guess, is acknowledging that we're seeing employers increasingly recognize that without this evidence-based guidance, their policies may fall short, they might fail to translate evidence into meaningful day-to-day support. And so providing them with this evidence base was also really crucial. So that kind of underpins the motivation for our study.
Rachael Jordan (04:51)
It's such a complex area. So many different things that can go on during this time of life, so many ways that an individual and a family can be impacted, I guess, from a workplace perspective and something that we're very conscious of with the parent experience is it can feel quite overwhelming and difficult for employers to know, you where do I even start and how are things linked together and if I change this piece, what will the effect have over there?
What I really love about the toolkit, which we'll provide a link to in the show notes that you've developed is that kind of that evidence and that here's what's worked and here's what you can try kind of really actionable and really simple and trying to, suppose, lay out a bit of a roadmap for a starting point for employers and organisations.
Ruth (05:38)
Yeah, thank you so much for kind of summing it up so well. I think that was one of the real key elements that we wanted to make sure is that this translated into practice so that there were concrete things. I'm sure we'll get onto the nitty gritty of the findings, but one of the things that Lilith and I were so surprised by was the evidence base. Maybe as you might expect, just because women's health has never really received the attention it's deserved, but it's incredibly limited in terms of what we know to really work.
Rachael Jordan (05:46)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. And it's, you know, always good. And we love it when we find examples of workplaces doing it really well. Because it can be such a good example and good motivator for others to follow suit. I feel like it feels like that's what the issue needs is just a set of employers who write, right, with where we're done doing things the way that we've always done them. Let's just let's really break through and disrupt and do something different. And sometimes I think the changes that they can make are not always completely revolutionary. They might feel revolutionary in terms of the way that people can feel supported. certainly, again, from the PX perspective, some of the changes that we recommend are actually really simple. It's just not being on the radar. People haven't been aware in terms of in the workplace as to what they can do. So, yeah, I'm really, really looking forward to getting into the findings off the back of this research. And I'm sure that the toolkit and the checklist that you've pulled together will be really helpful for employers as well.
Krystal (07:09)
Okay, thank you for that great introduction. Could you tell our listeners a little bit more about the research process? know, bearing in mind we've got a mixed audience.
Ruth (07:17)
Yeah, absolutely. So this study had a very particular approach to it, which is something known as a realist approach. I mean, that in itself is a whole other podcast session, but I'll keep it brief just really because what a realist approach does is it looks at identifying, well, for this particular study anyway, identifying successful workplace interventions. As we've already mentioned, we were looking specifically across different reproductive life phases.
Pregnancy, postnatal return and menopause, effectively a three in one review. And a realist approach allows us to move beyond simply saying kind of what are the issues, what are the barriers, facilitators, and actually what we drill down into is what works for whom, how, and under what circumstances. So we try and specifically pull out each of those strands in order to make our recommendations or action statements that allow the research to be translatable into practice. It is also an approach that allows us to take into account a range of different types of evidence. So in an ideal world, we were kind of drawing on practitioner reports and evaluations as well as academic literature.
And what we ended up doing, so we were funded back in 2024, the studies just finished 2026. And during that time, we collected over 13,000 documents from seven different academic databases and one search engine. We applied a very rigorous screening process that the whole team was involved in. And we arrived at a sample of 48 documents included in our review that articulated a range of different interventions.
Krystal (08:52)
Thank you so much. That's really useful for such a grounded discussion so that people kind of know what we're talking about when we're talking about this evidence base. So can you tell us a little about the key findings? And then one of the really important things for me was the emissions, so things that kind of weren't there in that evidence base.
Lilith (09:11)
So thank you, Krystal. Thank you, Rachael, for having us on the show. And well, I'm sure everyone is waiting impatiently to hear which interventions were successful and which weren't. But alas, it's not as simple as that, like like most of science. What we can tell you, however, is that from the work that we've done on this piece of research, we've been able to identify four key pillars that are important to interventions being successful.
So I'll list them out for the listeners and then I'll talk through a little bit about each one of them. So first things first, interventions must be thoughtfully designed. organisations must be ready to adapt and adjust. So there's a a strong element of organisational readiness for interventions to be successful. Number three, line managers and even co-workers play a really important role in facilitating or hindering these interventions from being successful. And fourth, organisations must send consistent signals that make sense altogether as part of this big pictures.
For our HR listeners, this is where the horizontal and vertical alignment is very important, which includes the signals that we send to our external customers or clients or the general public, but also crucially the signals that we send internally to our staff and stakeholders within the organisation as well. Now, you know, signals, what are we talking about? So organisational policies can function as signals that we send to our staff about what we think are important in in the organisation. So when we have policies in place, this can indicate or signal importance, or a lack of policies can also signal, you know, the the the opposite of that. So having organisational policies around women's reproductive health kind of places signals an importance that the organisation values women and their reproductive health at work. So when these policies are generous, when they're inclusive,
It sort of gives the message that the organisation cares and supports, whereas inadequate policies that aren't really fit for purpose, or even no policies at all, that that's silence, kind of signals indifference or a lack of genuine commitment or sort of a tick box rather than actual consideration. So when we think of how this all fits together, what's really important is to have this sort of consistency between the leadership.
The policies and the organisational practices in our day-to-day, because the consistency between these three factors can either strengthen or diminish the strength of the signals that the organisations are sending. So these signals can be explicit. So for example, you know, a written policy that we're all aware of, maternity leave, that's quite an explicit signal. Or it can be a bit more implicit. So, you know, leadership behaviors and attitudes that, you know.
This is how we do things around here. That also signals basically how we do things around here. So, overall, you know, if organisations want to genuinely support women's health at work, then they need to go beyond minimum compliance and signal authentic and genuine care in not only accepting but affirming women's health in the organisation. So when the interventions that the organisations have reflect the genuine needs of the beneficiaries of the people that are going to be the recipients of this, then you know we are much more likely to regard them as legitimate and taking into account of our needs. You know, the organisation cares about me, so I'm going to engage with these policies. Overall, based on the research that we did, we found that the success of interventions can also be heightened.
When the needs of diverse groups are taken into account, and when interventions have the option to adapt to different groups or different job types if if if it's needed. So we can't have a one-size-fits-all approach because of course women, people, everyone's different and diverse. But if we have a policy that can then be adapted if necessary for different groups or job types, then that's likely to heighten or enhance the success of it.
Few other things that are worthwhile to point out. So the evidence based from our work shows that digital interventions, of which there's some successful ones that are coming through, educational resources, these can be successful. What is important is the context, of course. So when and how these are implemented is quite important. So to really influence change and signal genuine, sustainable, and this is quite key, sustainable support.
What we need to do is raise awareness across the whole organisation and different employee groups, create an inclusive and welcoming climate for women and reproductive health, more broadly, just promoting the physical and mental health of women, of people, of our of our workers, and supporting line managers to be able to facilitate all of the above. You know, line managers and even co-workers are quite key.
And they they need to have the support and the training and the education themselves necessary to then be able to facilitate the interventions. And now, Krystal, responding directly to your question about you know the omissions, yes, as Ruth has already alluded to, we were quite surprised at some of the evidence base. so we did find some some important gaps in our knowledge base. you know, they they there was limited evidence, evaluation evidence of how best to support people going through IVF, miscarriage, stillbirth at work, for example. So these are very nuanced and important topics that we need better evidence based on. Overall we found very limited impact evaluations of practices and policies that we have.
You know, that can include impact evaluations on on practices that are common and that are no norm. For example, keep in touch days, which most organisations offer. You know, I use them myself, I'm sure many of us have have have used them as well. But we we really couldn't find any robust and impact evaluations of of these interventions that are currently happening in practice. So lots more to do, and hopefully we've you know, Ruth and I and and and and the rest of the the people that are researching are starting to chip away at this.
Krystal (15:30)
Thank you so much. That's such a really, really useful and comprehensive kind of overview of the key findings and the key recommendations and those emissions. And I mean, it really is kind of shocking that the academic base on evaluations is so thin. But it comes up in time and time again when I've spoke to employers as well, that a lot of employers aren't actually evaluating common interventions and things that they're putting quite a lot of money into. So something to be mindful of for the HR listeners that might be on the call. I love, really, really, really, really love, I think it's so helpful, this signaling in the theory and how we can sort of think of that in multiple ways in terms of multiple stakeholder groups. So you identify line managers as a really important group. And I think we expect a lot of our line managers, know, increasingly they're expected to do more and more and more. They're often referred to as like the squeeze middle, you know, in the literature because that, you know, they're being expected to do more and more with less and less. So what are your views on the sort of support and guidance that they need and kind of, I suppose, the signals that organisations can send that we want you to be good line managers as well as good at delivering on whatever kind of operational job they might have as well.
Ruth (16:38)
Yeah, thanks for the question. It's a really important one. And also thank you for kind of acknowledging the value of signals. I think conceptually it was very interesting for us, but also the way it translates into real action. It's one of those things that it gives enough space for it to become bespoke to any organisation and their kind of employee body. But specifically to your question around line managers and I mean, gosh they really are the squeezed middle. And I think this study, again, is just one of those ones that highlights it. It was a core kind of theme and concept that came through in the evidence base that they're really at the crux of supporting women in the workplace. And this is both in terms of being consistent in feeding forward organisational messages, if they're there, you know, in terms of that messaging, knowing what the organisational policies are, the legal rights.
But then also the day-to-day being able to hold that space and have these high risk but humane conversations, that's an awful lot to hold. And it's not always what, you know, maybe a line manager may have expected or signed up to do. I think it's also important within that to acknowledge that the life experiences of a line manager also shape their ability, their knowledge, their capacity to recognize and respond to women's health needs in the workplace.
So it's really an area that's kind of ripe for a lot of additional support, additional conversations and additional research. I guess where we saw the evidence base getting a little bit tricky is, as Lily mentioned, education and educational initiatives and interventions featured quite heavily in the evidence base that we had. But there's a tension there in terms of it needing to be applied. So it's not helpful to just offer general training on a very specific issue without line managers then being able to kind of role play it and implement their knowledge, their awareness and their kind of new skills directly. So that's a tricky one for organisations to navigate and we definitely need a bit more research there into what type of training and learning works best. Is it something that needs to be accessible in the moment so managers can upscale themselves right before a conversation happens that may be difficult, as well as creating a much more, I guess, psychologically safe place for line managers to ask for what they need to be supported, and also recognizing that.
Ruth (19:10)
You know, again, line managers come from diverse backgrounds themselves. They may also have been exposed to certain experiences that either prime them for these conversations or the opposite. So, yeah, it's a really interesting, difficult and, yeah, as I said, kind of ripe area for future work.
Krystal (19:11)
Yeah, thank you for that. We're seeing some of that in the conversations and the research that we're having around, managers absolutely need the time to invest in doing this well and the support themselves when they are picking up things that are psychologically demanding emotional work and so on. Also, some kind of things I've been seeing recently around peer learning spaces for managers and things like that so that we can learn from each other theme that really comes up in your work as well was the importance of including kind of lived experience in the design of workplace interventions. I just wondered if you had anything to add on your thoughts about that.
Lilith (20:06)
So yes, thank you, Krystal for for prompting that. This was a core finding in our review, actually, that the lived experiences of the beneficiaries, including line managers, as Ruth has just articulated, that that the lived experiences are essential in being able to develop appropriate interventions, especially so that they can be implemented well, so that they can have good uptake and ultimately importantly remain sustainable in the workplace. So it's not just a one and done.
So, you know, that sustainability, and I mentioned that before as well, is is really important. one thing as well, worth pointing out is that working groups are important as well, and the working groups should ideally be mixed and balanced and shared well with sufficient access to power and resources to then have the clout to, you know, to make recommendations that are that have the gravitas to to be listened to. Because of course all of these interventions have a huge cost associated with it, not just culture change but you know, budgets and finances as well.
Krystal (21:08)
Oh yeah, I love that and I agree with it a huge amount. And that kind of brings us on to that organisational level and you know that the higher levels, the senior leadership and that kind of consistent and supportive organisational messaging. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about some of the ways that leadership can signal support for maternity leave and return to work and menopause but know sort of these what we're asking for from our senior teams.
Ruth (21:32)
Yeah, I mean, we're asking for everything, everything they can possibly do, to be honest. But holistically, one of the things that again ran through the evidence base was it's not about kind of top down or bottom up or an intervention. It's everything, which is why I kind of jokingly said it is everything. We need everything like a sandwich brought together.
But to be a more specific, that they're really, I think, you we're chipping away at it slowly, slowly, but there needs to be this wider cultural shift away from stigma and embarrassment towards openness about women's health. And an intervention alone isn't going to do this. That's why we need that kind of multi-pronged, multi-faceted kind of approach. And it's largely because employees are very attuned to whether an organisational support feels genuine.
So as Lilith mentioned earlier, when interventions go beyond minimal legal compliance and are clearly communicated through multiple channels, they're much more likely to be trusted and used. And when an organisation sees their interventions or initiatives being used, it creates that generative sustainability. Alongside this, consistency matters. So it's about joining up policies, leadership messages, training, everyday practices, so that women are more likely to engage with the support and feel included. Something that we, I think we perhaps haven't spoken about enough in the research that we've done is also the role of, we've mentioned line managers and coworkers, but kind of who these coworkers are. there were no real interventions on initiatives like shared parental leave. And so it's also about partners and people who are outside of work as well supporting women at work. And whilst that's not necessarily an employer's responsibility, it does kind of come back to what are we normalizing? What are we, you know, what messages are we sending out about who can help and how? But to return to your question specifically about kind of senior leaders, it's just some points that that we also articulate in our guide is this idea that we need to be positioning women's health as an organisational wide endeavour. Often what we sometimes see is an individualisation or isolated HR initiatives and what this does is it's a piecemeal approach. It's a very quick and easy solution to something that is systemic and it's just no longer fit for purpose. Clarifying how information sharing regarding women's health is handled.
And also demonstrating that adjustments are realistic, timely and supportive in practice. So quite often in the evidence base there would be interventions, particularly for pregnancy at work actually, those risk assessments. But then adjustments not necessarily implemented. And so again, it comes back to that consistency of what are you evaluating and how are you valuing it and what signals are you sending out there?
Task forces, working groups like Lilith mentioned, these are all really, really important to kind of share that power dynamic to establish the needs of beneficiaries, have an open conversation and also keep that going as well. It's not that kind of one hit, one time. Alongside this, definitely something that organisations really need to kind of focus their energies on is collecting data to better track and understand engagement with kind of initiatives and interventions, but also the more distal outcomes as well, things like retention, sickness leave, presenteeism, and bringing all of that together through kind of data linking. And then finally, you know, it's something that you mentioned, Krystal, about that kind of peer learning. That peer learning doesn't, it can happen through multiple layers of an organisation. So learning from existing partnerships or learning from other businesses and organisations that are doing this well and implementing that continuous learning process as part of an ongoing review of initiatives. All of those things are just starting points really.
Krystal (25:24)
I absolutely love that summary. Thank you so much. And it comes back to something that we're trying to advocate for time and time again in my research center at my university. So we're the center for decent work and productivity. And it's the idea that, you know, all of this stuff around women's health, yes, it's well-being, yes, it's supporting people who've been stigmatized, but it's good business. And you mentioned that, you know, it's the impact on your retention, it's the impact on your productivity, it's your absence levels, your presenteers and all of those things. And I think when, you know, when we're signaling consistently from the top that doing these things well is good for business. It's good for everybody. It's just that it's not only an issue, it's an everyone's issue. I think that can be really, really powerful. But to do that, they have to resource it. They have to invest in managers so managers can deliver what the policy is saying. So now absolutely love all of your work and I'm so grateful that you did it. And I'm so grateful that you came on our podcast to talk about it. And on that, what's next? Do you have any further plans for research in particular pregnancy and the return to work element is what our parent experience is mainly focused about but women's health more broadly?
Lilith (26:25)
Yes, we do. We have loads of plans. Ruth and I are working on seven projects together. So watch this space to see where our funding takes us and hopefully in a year's time we'll be back on here and have us again to tell you more.
Krystal (26:40)
Yes please!
Rachael Jordan (26:41)
Thanks so much Ruth and Lilith. That was really interesting to listen to and so many similarities in terms of conscious decisions that Krystal and I have made as it relates to the parent experience, especially around the importance of evaluating provisions in terms of how their experience. read this line in your guide and I absolutely loved it. was evaluate how the provision is experienced, not just documented. And that's what takes it from being tokenistic to genuine, right? In addition to everything you said in terms of do, do employees go beyond the minimum? You know, are the signals consistent? think, you know, thinking and measuring the difference that it makes in somebody's day to day life, I think is another really solid signal as to how well it's landing and is it really having the meaningful difference that hopefully, you know, they've set out to create. So I really love kind of the recommendations that you make around how things are designed and obviously with the people who they're actually going to apply to involved in the co-creation and the design of what provisions can look like as well. And again, with the parent experience, the first stage being the surveys aimed at exactly that anonymous mechanic, if you like, for people to say, you know, this is working really well, this isn't quite working and to be able to cut that feedback versus role in the organisation or versus seniority, I think would be really valuable as well. I'm very excited to see what comes next. absolutely the door is always open. It's just one last thing in terms of how people can connect with you and how people can follow you on this journey. I know in terms of the research that you've talked through today, you have a website and you have a downloadable guide. So I encourage everyone who's listening to this to visit www.workplacethriving.co.uk. The links will be in the show notes. There is a guide on the website which is aimed at employers which contains a really good checklist which I feel would be a really good starting point in terms of a little audit of where employers think they are right now. Obviously we have the parent experience and again go back to your point around having data to measure. PX and the PX score is a really great way of doing that. again, listeners, www.theparentexperience.com please check us out and get in touch.
Ruth Lilith, you are both on LinkedIn, if anyone would like to follow you. Lilith, you're on LinkedIn as Lilith A Wiley. And Ruth, you're on LinkedIn as Ruth Abrams, is that correct?
Lilith (29:23)
That's right.
Ruth (29:27)
That is.
Rachael Jordan (29:28)
Okay, perfect. If anyone would like to reach out for any reason, please feel free. Especially, I guess, if you're an employer and you would like to be a case study for future research. I feel like we need to form this task force of employers who are really looking to give this everything and really take on board all of the advice that Ruth and Lilith shared with us today and to measure it via the parent experience score.
Lilith (29:58)
And I'd like to end on a on a message of of hope. So so yes, these are high risk, complex situations with diverse people, different needs, intersecting individual identities. But I think there's there's one thing to take away is that employers, HR, line managers, employees, we don't have to be at odds with each other. We can work together. So, you know, but all parties should be aware of you know their their rights and and and what's necessary but also really importantly that we should be humble in terms of what we know and what we don't know and most importantly that we should we should be humble know and in what we don't know, and most importantly that we should retain our humanity.
Krystal (30:46)
I love that so much. I think, yeah, we're working with them and NHS Trust at the moment on that kind of maternity management offerings. And I think it's really, good because it's a really difficult time, you know, for the NHS in terms of staffing shortages, know, funding cuts and so on. And it's a really complex organisation in terms of all the shift patterns, all the different jobs. And they're trying and they're humble and they're sort of saying, look, we are where we are. We've got challenges but we're going to do all that we can and we're going to involve our people to try and design better. I think if all employers can kind of, you know, go in with, okay, we have challenges, but it's better to try something, you know, and signal to our staff that we're trying something than to just either assume it's not a problem or to assume that it can't be fixed. So yeah, I really appreciate that kind of words of wisdom there. And Ruth, I wondered if you had any kind of last thoughts, any message?
Ruth (31:33)
Yeah, just exactly what you were saying there. It really is better to just signal that you're trying. It's okay to get it wrong, you know, as long as it's not kind of got legal ramifications or implications. But ultimately, we're all people with life experiences trying to do our best and I think trying to understand what those good intentions are is just really crucial. And Rachael, to your point about task force and us kind of, you know, using this as a springboard, absolutely. think Lilith and I are very much here for that. We've been talking about seeing whether we can do a series of implementation labs for the guide. So we are very, very open and keen to hear from employers who might want to have conversations about what the translation of the research into practice and also to keep conversations going with both of you too. So just a huge, huge thank you for having us on.
Rachael Jordan (32:22)
No problem. We're delighted that you had the time to spend with us today. It's such a repeatable model that you've created as well. You know, it's in the context of women's health in this case, but you know, the steps and the thought process, I feel, could be translated into other areas across the organisation as well. It's kind of like a frame of mind and a process that you've laid out so clearly and so effectively.
Krystal (32:22)
Thank you so much for joining us.
Rachael Jordan (32:48)
Thank you for the research and thank you for the tools that you've now given to help employers take that next step.
Krystal (32:56)
it's so, so valuable just that review of the evidence base
Rachael Jordan (32:59)
Sources and references, including the website and the guide and the checklist, as well as contact details for Ruth and Lilith will be in the show notes. So thank you for your time today, and we'll see you on the next episode. Goodbye.
